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Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
320
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Posted - 2015.11.05 02:14:06 -
[1] - Quote
Judging by various activity maps the vast majority of players in EVE live in high sec. This is everyone from casual players to serious pvpers.
Industry is widely available Research Facilities are Widely Available The Cost is relatively low The Risk is low Between missions, complexes and incursions - getting loads of ISK has never been easier.
1) players should (within reason) be allowed to inhabit EVE where they please and play the game in a manner to their individual liking. 2) CCP wants more people in low and null-sec space - which is virtually empty in most systems most of the time 3) Faction Warfare has pushed some into low sec and I would consider that a successful feature at this point 4) Null Sec still empty most of the time and statistically all of the time.
What would make you move to null sec?
Do incursions and level 3/4 missions offer too much isk with too little risk?
How do you feel about the current tax structure in EVE? - Should it be increased in high sec?
Should CCP do another Gate Redirect as they did at the end of 04/early 05? Create a more fragmented travel framework? Or leave it as is?
What would make you leave high sec in general (without feeling the urge to quit EVE)?
I have ideas but I am honestly curious to hear from the perpetual high sec player. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
320
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Posted - 2015.11.05 02:33:38 -
[2] - Quote
Aoife Fraoch wrote:What does CCP the business get from encouraging people to be active outside of high sec beyond the current levels?
generally more diverse and exciting game play that attracts more players
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
320
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 03:16:39 -
[3] - Quote
Aoife Fraoch wrote:Justin Cody wrote:Aoife Fraoch wrote:What does CCP the business get from encouraging people to be active outside of high sec beyond the current levels? generally more diverse and exciting game play that attracts more players $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Yet the ideas proposed above to accomplish this are all sticks rather than carrots? Aside from incursions which probably need a look, nerfing high sec income is highly unlikely to achieve your objectives. After all, NPC corp tax, lvl 5s in low sec, changes to ore, etc, did not manage to do this in the past. Hell, I suspect purple fleets and corporations that organise their members for low sec roams do far more for getting people out of high sec than any change to in game mechanics and earning potential. The only exceptions to this I can think of may be FW and scanning down sites.
Yes I haven't actually proposed anything. Sticks are only one part. It would have to be balanced by increased low sec and null sec income as well as potentially increased risk in null sec...like more NPCs that point and web and fewer anoms with a higher value. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
320
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 03:30:03 -
[4] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Justin Cody wrote:High Sec - Newb Training Area or the only space worth playing in? Neither, but definitely not the latter. It may be perceived that way, but it's only because people, in general, are pretty bad at math.
maybe bad at math but fairly good at knowing they don't want to lose stuff. High sec is a great place to keep stuff and generally not die to anything except suicide ganks and station camping war decs. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
320
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 04:11:12 -
[5] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:I want to see some group play in null, or at least something that encourages some sort of population density. Anoms seem to be solo content, ratting seems even more solo-centric than anoms. DED plexes seem to all be soloable at this point. Overall there are so many null systems there just doesn't seem to be much incentive out there for people to be in null systems. I think that if we can improve null density that is a win-win for everyone. pvpers can go around and hunt, they might actually even get a fight as the people looking to pve are already in a group, and aren't in solo centric ratting boats that don't stand a chance in pvp. Also if you get pvpers disrupting your group pve, the group might decide to go shoot the roaming intruders. My biggest problem here is how do we reward players for this, pure isk would just be an insane isk faucet. LP, but for who? maybe a new store but then what would be in it? Anyways it should end up being higher paying than solo or group activities in highsec.
I did some WH content in a group with signal cartel. It paid out pretty well, and for the most part used pretty cheap ships/setups. For a new player it paid out better than most solo activities. With my skills I can make more solo. However there were also a bunch of things that could have been more optimized about it. Mostly not wasting so much time between sites, players knowing the sites, improving fits, and improving player sp. However half the point is it is new player friendly so some of those things shouldn't be major concerns and some things can be more flexible. Main problems are it requires taking time to form up, the sites are limited, and you usually can't run for more than a few hours at a time. That said those problems aren't all constraints placed by the game.
I'm at the point where if I can make 100m/hour and help a (or a few) new player that is usually better than making 200m/hour. at the same time it shouldn't feel like welfare to the new player.
PS: I have no desire to join up with mega blob inc. so that is a pretty large discouraging factor from most of nullsec.
1) yes CCP needs to create more group content in null sec (and w-space for that matter) 2) You have to organize around something more than PVE - otherwise why do anything but HS incursions? 3) New player friendly should also mean low rewards and HS rewards are not low |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
320
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 04:12:35 -
[6] - Quote
Andrew Indy wrote:I personally think of it this way.
Low,Null,WH are like play grounds, HS is like your home (or work). Sure people spend a huge amount if time in HS but hat does not mean that they don't go outside. You might have to grind ISK for several hours to buy a ship and then only spend 1-2 hours roaming, the worse HS is the longer you have to spend in it.
People don't go outside of HS to earn isk (well a large amount of casual players) because its either not worth the risk or its too much effort. Increasing the isk only fixes half of that equation and you cant fix the other half without making people to safe.
hence me saying that they should improve the rewards in low sec (non-fw LS that is). |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
320
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 04:16:26 -
[7] - Quote
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
Personally I think it's a little more involved. There is no doubt that you can make isk out side of high sec, but most players can not make it happen consistently. And most look at the risk and don't go further.
Unless they have backup. In my opinion to get people out of high sec they first need to be encouraged to work together. You know, come for the pew and the purple fleets and then stay because it's safer to make isk when you are all in the same system on coms together.
Option 1 - Stick: HS incursions = LP only payout - no isk - Carrot: LS Incursion frequency increase and 100% drop rate for sansha super carrier bpc and shadow bomber bpcs
Option 2 - Stick/Carrot Hybrid = HS Incursions change sec status of the constellation to 0.4 making it a LS incursion for the duation until players fight back - lack of action makes incursion spread like space cancer to neighboring constellations and even across empires and player sov borders.
Just a couple ideas |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
320
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 04:18:03 -
[8] - Quote
Oh and move all level 4 missions to low sec - no high sec Level 4's at all. Increase payouts 25% in isk and LP. Also introduce low sec pirate missions that can get turned in at pirate citadels \o/ |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
322
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Posted - 2015.11.05 04:49:09 -
[9] - Quote
note likely this has been an issue since the game began. hs is the soft cushion |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
323
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Posted - 2015.11.06 02:48:59 -
[10] - Quote
Zakks wrote:Why would I give up a 1-bedroom apartment in Manhattan for a shack in the Bronx?
Also, the overall % of Highseccers that actually run incursions is incredibly small by my observations. Nerfing or completely eliminating them will have almost no effect on the masses (or me).
Lastly, I think the trade hubs are the reason Highsec is so popular. If you could find a way to move the trade hubs then people will follow the trade.
like I suggested...redirect the gates. separate the empires. long haul freighters would need an escort through low sec or even intervening null sec. Group content! |
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Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
323
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Posted - 2015.11.06 02:51:04 -
[11] - Quote
Tanthos wrote:Nerf bubbles. Nerf gate camps. They are what keep people out of null.
Anchored bubbles do need a nerf (24 hour time limit) like most of the new deployable structures. It hinders hunting in null sec as well when there is a 5x5x5 grid (125) bubbles on a gate. (oh my frame rate).
you can't nerf gate camps - that is player content. most systems are empty and there are many wormholes around camps. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
323
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 02:56:01 -
[12] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Justin Cody wrote: What would make you leave high sec in general (without feeling the urge to quit EVE)?
I have ideas but I am honestly curious to hear from the perpetual high sec player.
I am exactly that kind of player. And you know what - I do PvE when I do not feel to run into PvP. Making ISKor even simply traveling in low / null sec is PvP even if you do not want it. But I do PvP when I feel like and go to low sec for this. Null is empty or blobed. FW is way how to get at least some chance to fight with match making, where you cn warp out from the blob entering your PLEX or laugh at T3 destroyer when you sitting in novice plex. You can not be surprised by recon in small plex etc... You see where I am going? You want more PvP in null? Put at least some match making mechanics in there. Fair fights is all we need. Or we do not - it is a sandbox. Eve is unique exactly because of the blob friendly approach. 1. Let me PvE in null without PvP, when I do not want PvP. Sort of anomalies with collapsing entrance once you passed in would do. Something with unique sights would drag in PvE oriented players even if ISK income will not be that high. 2. Let me solo PvP with at least some chance to get fair fight when I am ready and want PvP. Null arena with drifters as judge or whatever. 3. Make more high sec / null sec gates. You want ppl in null - you should give them access to it. One ever camped gate per region is simply not enough. 4. Make more NPC null regions. People do play solo for family / time / social / historical reasons. You want solo players in null - let them dock.
1) No 2) Use scouts (alts or friends) 3) Maybe more entrances not a bad idea - perhaps just redirect some existing entrances 4) No - syndicate, venal, great wildlands, stain all suck - too safe. Curse is a weird exception sometimes but it can still suck when everyone is docked. Outer Ring/Fountain Core also suck for content and the same goes for pure bling (Mordus) and Geminate (Sisters). There are plenty of npc sov areas as you can see. We don't need more. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
323
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 02:57:27 -
[13] - Quote
Intar Medris wrote:The rewards are there but not enough for most to justify the move to null sec. WHs are much more appealing than SOV Null sec. Players are literally making billions a week. Players have greater control over their income in WH than null sec. Null sec the Alliance controls the most lucrative resource, moon goo. Null has more cons than pros.
billions per hour actually...certain players make 2.4b/hour. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
323
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 03:08:48 -
[14] - Quote
Quote:Some people play in high sec because that's where their 'targets' are, and others play there for other reasons. I played in high sec because it offers the hands-down best "risk to isk" ratio in the game (as you can see here and here). It's really insane, a single pilot in a Mach doing level 3s in high sec protected by CONCORD can make almost as much (only 4 mil isk per hour less) than the SAME hull with a single pilot in null sec where there is no automated npc protective response. And what happens in the 2nd link with burner mission blitzing isn't even physically possible in sov null (it is in npc null, just unlikely). And don't even get me started on High sec Incursions. The only way I was able to move my primary isk making operation out of high sec was when CCP accidentally fixed null by upping the "anom to expedition" escalation chances (which lets people like me farm 7 and 8/10 DEDs and match what we could get farming high sec incursions (but STILL not even close to what you can do blitzing burners). But still the imbalances caused by high sec mechanics are glaring, and often dismissed by irrational high sec partisans because of all the Goons flying AFK ships on alts all day long (generating a lot of semi passive isk that makes null sec look like what it's generally not; a super lucrative place to play). This game is long overdue for a rewards re-balance, but it isn't going to happen because CCP isn't really aware of the imbalances, as seen by how they are about to add a Tribute system to the game which is a really dumb mistake. Not only will that system reward people for staying in high sec and facing little to no risk, it's going to reward those aforementioned afk goons for AFKtaring the game economy to crap (Pith loot is so cheap it might as well be dirt lol). CCP does many things well, but rewards balancing is not one of them.
Yeah which is part of why I want to target incursions and level 4's. Level 3 missions I'm not fussed about. It is good mid-game content and is more of a grind than 4's.
I want to boost non-fw space with pirate enclaves where you can start your npc mission running for them before venturing into npc null.
I want to redirect gates to make empire travel riskier and create more choke points and separate empires further to create a more diverse trade hub system. Imagine each region having a high sec core and low/null as transfer points. You might bet really good low sec trade hubs as a result.
In null sec I want to see the anomalies made more dangerous - more pointing and webbing and in-fact warp SCRAMBLING ships. You can push up the value a little bit. Also running frequent anoms should make the military index higher (better quality) but far fewer anoms as the low ranking pirates avoid being killed for no good reason - some diminishing return mechanic based on true sec.
In W-space I wanna see drifters appear on shattered WH's like high sec rats do. Give us some more challenges there. Hell have random drifters appear in w-space data/relic sites sometimes. Make it interesting. The cap changes in spring will fix most of the hero dreadnought tactics.
W-space should be all about group content as well as the best true sec in sov space.
I want to fix it all and make it harder at all levels not just high sec. There are issues with war decs being ineffective since there is no surrender system or tribute system so corps can either escape a war dec or force concessions out of an enemy but that is a different issue. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
323
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 06:31:50 -
[15] - Quote
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68738/1/total.production.value.by.region.sept.2015.png |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
324
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 21:17:56 -
[16] - Quote
erg cz wrote:No offense, but who will read wall of text like this? Well, some ppl will, but most just scroll down to TL;DR version. If there is any. I rearely read posts with more than 20 lines of text. Just saying.
no one said you had to post. literally complaining about nothing. go away. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
325
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 07:07:39 -
[17] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:I'd like to see subscription numbers rise, and especially more people making it out to low and nullsec. But people (and especially in this, and every other thread about highsec) seem to forget something. The different sec levels in this game are VASTLY different beasts and need to be considered differently in order to come to real, effective answers.
Like, people keep saying we need to drive players out into nullsec. I agree, but to what limit? Nullsec can't support the same population density as highsec. There's only so many anoms out there, only so many rats to kill, and the mining is already done to death and any more will just crash markets.
Isk aside, nullsec can't support a lot of players because of politics. People complain about much of null being empty, well what happens when it starts getting crowded? You can't feel safe running anoms if there's ten people in the next system over. Or maybe you do, but only because you have nine blues helping guard your system?
Too many people, it becomes a clustercluck, people won't have the opportunities they were looking for and leave back to other areas of space anyway, and large empty portions of space will continue to exist.
There are other political problems at play in null. My corp alt had the chance to join a corp that was part of a large null alliance. The procedure to apply though, was more complicated than my last auto loan. Sign up for this forum, submit this API, talk to this guy, background check, pee in a cup, download this chat program, etc etc. And honestly I would have, but the day to day life of null didn't seem to be appealing either (interviewed a few people in the alliance who, despite the description, very much for it). Gotta go through a huge list of people to blue, people to red, participate in # of ops per week, don't go here, must go there, sit in this system and be a canary, etc. If I just want to play EvE a bit more casually, chat with friends, do a little group play, or have drunken roams, it was almost impossible to do so. It's just not my playstyle.
Nullsec is ripe (rife is the word you're looking for) with isk and precious loot, but there's only so much you can introduce anyway because of the population problem. I'm told most people do sites alone or in a small group if it's available. So, how many people can support themselves isk-wise in any given system? One person is likely to get into a system and run all the sites themselves if they can;
It boils down to the nature of people, and the nature of the game, have a strict upper limit to how many players can be supported in nullsec. I often hear an idea floated about giving SOV the option to install mission agents. That's fine, but then why not Zoidberg just jump clone to highsec and mission with less chance of interruption?
Lowsec faces similar problems, but to lesser extent. With nullsec entities that can barge through the backdoor at any time, and highsec entities that like to roam barging through the frontdoor, lowsec makes for a chaotic and unpredictable area. Rewards there will never be optimal because it seems to be the most dangerous area of space. (it is...sorta) I'll explain below.
You can't do much to nerf highsec income without crippling the abilities of groups to save up isk to venture out into low and null in the first place. You don't want a situation where nullsec membership becomes mandatory for all players at some point, which as I pointed out many won't do because it doesn't jive with their life or playstyle, and they'll simply quit.
The allure of nullsec is and should be the ability to grab land and plant a flag (yes). Income should be enough to keep you afloat and bring in a tidy profit(which I believe moon goo does), it shouldn't be the mountain of gold people want it to become. If you want more people in null, you have to reinforce to them what null is about (hint: it's not about money!)
Ok so
- So by it's nature, nullsec can't appeal to everyone no matter what carrots or sticks you introduce. I didn't say it had to - red herring. I simply asked what would make you move out there.
- The limit to which people choose to move into null is like a fluid dynamics function. That is we have pressures, viscosities, temperatures and densities. The main thing is risk/reward. You and others admit that the risk isn't worth the reward in the way you do your "fun calculus". And since you place so much emphasis on being "left alone" to do an activity - that is something to be weighted in figuring this out.
- You have no experience in low or null so what people tell you or what you hear is irrelevant. Some null systems can support dozens of people doing anoms and others only a few (based on true sec and sov upgrades). Some people make enough money where they NPC in capitals and even super capitals. That is...the risk is fairly low over time and some preparations like cyno jammers and rolling any wormhole that may spawn. Local is the most powerful intel tool in EVE.
- Low sec (aside from FW) is fairly safe. There are very few gate camps and lots of K-space to K-space connections through WH's as shortcuts to move around. Level 5 missions are lucrative but FW is more attractive since it is less effort.
- Moon goo is largely corp/alliance income in most organizations though a fair few derive some personal gain.
- You can reduce (I didn't say cripple) high sec income and boost low/null income while increasing the risk. People went to null long before incursions existed and afforded quite a few things
- Null sec is meant to be a mountain of gold and w-space the gold rush frontier - right now high sec is steady and infaltes prices enormously with virtually zero risk.
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Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
325
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 07:21:58 -
[18] - Quote
Let me follow this up with - why you shouldn't WANT to clone jump back to high sec.
Risk/reward - the risk-reward ratio should always skew slightly in the favor of risk...that means high sec reward should be minimal compared to the other options. The space should be greener farther out from the empires' influences.
With the new citadels you can have your own little space empire and yes someone can come and kick over your sand castle. This is however a social game. Playing it like a single player RPG/adventure/bob the builder game is terrible and the game mechanics should not encourage such unsocial play. It however does in some respect cater to solo play in high sec heavily. Casual play isn't to be discouraged but its value should be limited strictly in terms of monetary gain.
PLEX used to be 350M each. Massive inflation (some from null sec anoms) and a lot from HS incursions (imo) has inflated prices - since currency deflation isn't something that happens when you have 1 trade currency with nothing to hedge against. You could argue that it is currency deflation but your buying power for most durable goods hasn't changed very much. So inflation it is.
There is no population problem in null or low in terms of too many people. There are political issues but that can be dealt with politically. Simply writing it of as intractable is ignorant. You can feel plenty safe running anoms or scannable sites if you just keep an eye on local. So what if you have to warp off or dock up? Most roamers/harassers don't stick around. They get bored, though they might come back later. You just have to adjust your play style marginally from lazy to active.
Mining can be more competitive but you don't engage on pvp at that level so don't say that more can't be done. Nullsec isn't crowded so that isn't an issue to worry about - again a false argument. If it gets too crowded market dynamics will lead peopel into W-space, into pockets of low sec...faction warfare or any number of other activities including the new drifter incursions in low sec that will be returning soon.
we have new ships coming out and new content. This isn't a static environment and honestly anyone arguing in favor of the status quo has a huge burden of proof on them to say why it should stay the same as it has always been. So far I see fear and ignorance on display.
Join a decent low sec FW group - not the NPC militia. Yes they demand API's and that you use voice comms and probably jabber for pings. It isn't a lot of effort for...anyone. They interview you because they don't want a dumbass or spy joining them and thieving corporate assets in case ONE DAY they choose to trust you with something.
be more open to other people and deal with organizational requirements the way you would anywhere. Just put yourself in their positions. This isn't WOW or Guildwars or Second Life. EVE is real and you ARE there. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc. Hard Knocks Citizens
325
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 04:54:10 -
[19] - Quote
time to nerf this theme parked play style into the ground. please by all means quit so the game can get better. |
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